EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Things, Reasons: The NinjaOne Interview 

[00:00:00] Ladies and gentlemen, we are back. Welcome to Things, Reasons. We are, of course, the, the ultimate show for IT leaders. It’s where you get all the insights, you get your humor, you get the knowledge, you get absolutely everything we bring to that. 

Thank you for joining us again. Thank you to our Apple and Spotify subscribers. You’re very loyal. You’re a growing audience, and you’re deeply engaged, and we’re grateful for it. Now, I’m Naran McClung. You are, of course Jono Staff. Excellent. Now, we’ve got an awesome guest with us, and we’ve got some great topics. 

I’m not ready to introduce the guest because frankly, we don’t want to, but here’s the thing. Um, we’re gonna talk about some amazing things, one of which is how to build a channel business that pan- partners, sorry, actually wanna be part of. I, I tell you what, I’m ready to hear that. Mm-hmm. I’m ready to hear all about a channel partnership that doesn’t suck. 

We’re gonna talk about a contrarian story to this SaaS apocalypse thing that we’ve all been hearing about. Um, what was it? 

286, no, something, $268 billion wiped off in February, I think, of this year, something like that. Yeah, it wasn’t long ago they said AI was gonna kill SaaS, and we’ve got, uh, an [00:01:00] organization here today that, uh, seems to be growing- Mm-hmm … exponentially- In spite of it … in spite of it. Uh, and there’s reasons for that. 

Reasons. Good reasons. Good reasons, indeed. So we’re gonna get into that. Um, and look, there’s a bit of a story behind our Things, Reasons, um, show branding there as well. Yeah. Mm. Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about that.    

how about we get stuck into it? Why don’t you introduce our guest? I am very thrilled to introduce this guest. Vic Guerrero is a very good mate of mine, and he’s the VP of Channel and Enterprise for APAC at NinjaOne, where he has built one of the fastest-growing partner businesses in the region. 

He grew NinjaOne’s APAC partner-led revenue 166% year on year- here [00:02:00] on a deliberately selective go deep partner model. Wanna know more about how that works. NinjaOne recently crossed a USD $12.3 billion valuation in June 2026, growing roughly 70% year on year, is super profitable, and was recently named a leader in the 2026 Gartner Magic Quadrant for endpoint management tools. 

Vic has spent more than two decades in the channel from Adobe in the late 1990s. I can’t wait to hear a bit about the shenanigans of, uh, the glory days of Adobe in the ’90s through to Jabra, where he was chief revenue officer and nearly eight years at ORO Group before joining NinjaOne to build its Asia-Pacific channel and MSP presence. 

He may also be the originator of the phrase, Things Reasons, uh, which makes his seat in this chair very fitting today. Welcome, Vic. Thank you. Appreciate it. Very happy to have you with us, mate. [00:03:00] Um, we do this for every guest when they, uh, get on the podcast, especially for the first time. It’s fun. What’s one thing that our audience should know about you that, uh, most people might not know? 

Um, there’s probably a few things. One, I’ve got a watch fetish. Uh, which, which you probably well know about already. What are you wearing today, Vic? Can you show the audience? I’ve, uh, I’ve, I’ve dragged you into it. Okay. Very good. Um, a little two-tone. Uh, but yeah, I’ve got a watch fetish. Uh, there’s probably a bunch of other stuff that we can cover during the, uh, the episode. 

Just, I’ve got some questions on this, and look, you didn’t ask any because you have a watch fetish too, all right? And I get hassled, Vic, for not- Yes … having a fancy watch. Yes. I mean, I’m not sure my slim wrist could support one anyway, right? And Jono made me wear one on the last show. I could barely hold mine up. 

But aside from that, what is it about watches that watch people like? Like, what happens there? I think considering we’re surrounded with so much tech now- Right … um, it’s just nice to have a mechanical piece- Mm … on, on your wrist. [00:04:00] It also, it’s a, it’s a, you know, when you do the amount of work and travel and stuff that I do, just a good reminder that’s immediate for why you do what you do. 

I haven’t ventured down this path myself yet, but, um, you’re trying to force me down this path, Jono so. It’s the only path. It’s inevitable. It’s the only path. It’s the only path. All right. 

Seems to me that you could go back gangbusters just selling this direct, so you could just take it into customers in-market- Yep … and sell it. Yep. Build a big sales team, get on the phones. The product’s red hot. The timing’s great. Uh, but instead you’ve got a very deliberate channel strategy. Now, Naran and I, you’ve been doing this for a long time. 

Um, I’ve been in between, so I’ve mostly been direct customer-facing as somebody who works with vendors- Yep … and often bundles and sells their products. Um, I’ve had vendors cut my grass in, in deals and go around me and go direct, or try and- Me too … retake the play, [00:05:00] yeah. And it, and, and they can be really hard to deal with. 

Um- But I think, I think all of your growth is coming from the channel when you could easily go direct. Why is that? What are you doing differently? What, what’s your strategy? Like, share with us how- Yeah … it’s working. So it’s deliberate, um, and it’s market-dependent, right? So I think we, we’re blessed here in the APAC region that channel lends itself really well to, to, to the market, but we’re not unique. 

I mean, other parts of the world are exactly the same. Um, and also Ninja started as a direct market company servi- servicing MSPs, right? So, uh, y- especially for us, it’s been, uh… and our leadership was a, a huge bridge to cross, um- To, to get channel going, to pivot … to, yeah, to really pivot into, into channel. 

And, you know, compounding that, um, and, you know, I think you’re, you’re privy to this because you’ve been to the office, we run, you know, what I would call [00:06:00] arguably one of, you know, ANZ’s best, um, SDR operations. I mean, we’ve, you know, we’ve got over 25 SDRs in the North Sydney office. That’s sales development representatives for the punters out there. 

Sales development. Thank you. Uh, sorry, I’ll, I’ll s- stop using the initials. No, I, I’m good on the acronyms. Yeah. Thank you. You, they were good. Okay. Thank you. A sales development representative is the same as a business development manager, or what do we know? No, it’s, it’s- Different … the old inside sales. 

Inside sales. Inside sales. Got it. Outreach. Got it. Inside sales. But the motion that Ninja has built, um, you know, and this came over from, from the US- Mm … that they, they’ve tied these SDRs… Can I use that now, sales- Yep You may … yep, SDRs, um, with our account executives, BDMs. Um- is just kind of special the way that it’s been done. 

But I think the limitation on that in this market is that’s a very high velocity, SMB-driven type of, of market. Um, [00:07:00] the channel, especially as, as we go up the stack, mid-market enterprise, is more relationship-driven and trust-driven. And so, um, you know, I think, and tha- and that’s why we’ve, you know, on purpose kept our channel, um, relatively small when you look at, at, you know, at, at, at large vendors. 

I think we run a, a very tight, I hate using the word exclusive. It, it’s, it… But it’s a, it’s a very well-inspected channel, very deliberate. Um, we, we choose our partners exceptionally carefully. Um- All right. Let’s play on that. Yeah. ‘Cause I’ve got visions of, like, Studio 54, people lined up- Yes … around the street. 

Vic, you’re standing there at the door not letting anyone in- Exactly … unless they look- … and sound and feel a certain way. Yep. Um, how would somebody not make the cut? Not be engaged. Okay. Yeah. We, uh, we, we, we try not to do drive-bys. Um, our main thing is to engage with partners that [00:08:00] are looking to fill a particular solution set that they currently work in. 

Mm. Uh, that they’re working part- maybe with another vendor or they don’t have a solution in that space. Mm. Um, but they’re looking to engage with us in the same way that we’re looking to engage with them. Got it. So we don’t go for volume, we go for depth. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So whether that’s certifications, enablement, activation, there’s a whole bunch of stuff that, that we do in the background to vet exactly what we’re doing. 

Mm. And then we love them. Mm. We, we love them to death, right? So do you think that’s where other channel programs fail? I- is it where a vendor does a drive-by on every MSP in the market, and now, uh, y- you’re, uh, everybody’s selling your thing, and they’re all competing for the same deals? Do you think that’s- Yeah, I- 

where, where it f- where it goes wrong? I- it could be. It may be part of it. I mean, I, I think it was a blessing for me to spend, you know, almost eight years at Oro, um, interfacing and, and [00:09:00] other times before but, you know, relevant history, um, interfacing with, you know, all the tier one vendors that, that you guys talk about, uh, regularly. 

Mm. Um, and understanding where they were winning- Mm … and, and in my opinion, where they were failing. Yep. Um, and so, you know, if, if I… And, and I, I generally like to condense things as much as I can because then that way I can understand it. Um, but, you know, the, the, the role of the partner really is to provide genuine conversations for the vendor with that client. 

Mm. That’s if you go to the most basic form of this, right? There’s this trust level. If you think about it, w- you know, when you’re engaged with Ninjas, it’s a transactional conversation. So you’ll come in, uh, I, I highly encourage both our partners and our clients, please take a look at the product, test it. 

There’s free trials out there. We can do a POC. It’s easy to engage with us. Um, and I always like to start there. Regardless of whether it’s a partner or a [00:10:00] client or any conversation that we’re having, I like to start on the tech. Mm. Because if the tech is right, we can work out the rest. Mm. We can work out the commercials and everything else. 

And so, you know, there, there’s… I mean, and we could go down a lot of different paths here, right? But, you know, at a, at a very core level, if, if the partner is looking for a solution, they’re looking to engage with us, um, and they’re looking to provide that genuine conversation- Mm … that’s what’s important to us. 

Ge- a genuine conversation with their customer. Exactly, because that’s, that’s the hardest bit. When you’re tr- and you both have been doing this for years. What’s the hardest bit in a sale? The hardest bit in a sale is sitting opposite to someone that is genuinely interested in the conversation you’re about to have. 

Yeah. I mean, how many times as salespeople have we walked into a conversation, and we know in the first 15 seconds this isn’t gonna happen? Yeah. Right? And so, you know, as, as a, as a vendor, I’m looking to engage with partners that have deep [00:11:00] partnerships with their clients, right? Mm. And so, um, that’s, that’s where it starts for us, right? 

And, and, um, again- Back to where we started, our very nature is, you know, we’re, we’re providing you a best in class platform. It’s a transactional relationship. We will then provide what we consider to be best in class, you know, account management or in today’s new world- Mm … CSMs, you know, customer services manag- uh, service managers- Yep 

that will look after you and account manage you and then- Yep … um, you know, take you through the journey. But if you look at a partner, that partner is talking to that client many times a week, sometimes daily- Yes … depending on the scale and so forth, and so the relationship is inherently different. Mm. And that’s what we’re looking to leverage. 

Mm. That trust model. Mm. Right? So when, you know, insert partner, uh, name, whoever that might be, presents us to the client, it’s on a level of trust, right? Mm. There’s, there’s, there’s a, there, there’s, there’s a partnership already formed there. [00:12:00] Yes. Um, they believe that there’s a need. The client may have expressed the need, and again, it doesn’t really matter if it’s the MSP side or, or the resale side and/or co-managed. 

These days we do a lot of co-managed stuff, uh, via MSPs as well. That’s the magic, right? Yeah. And then our side of the story is that we then will surround you with everything and more that you need. Yeah. Right? And w- so what is that? Well, you know, we’ve, we’ve got this free onboarding, and that’s not, you know, someone lost in, in space. 

That is someone that sits in the North Sydney office, I’m talking for the ANZ market, that sits in the North Sydney office. They’re a, they’re a certified professional. They’re one of our SEs, one of our solution engineers. Um, and you can book a time directly with them in their diary. They- it, it’s non-complicated. 

So, you know, free onboarding, f- free training, and all of this stuff is unlimited, right? Mm. Same as our support, which we shouldn’t call support. It’s actually, when you look at, at the market and other vendors in our space, [00:13:00] it’s premium support that you’re getting- Yeah … with every time that you buy Ninja. 

Yeah. When, and so y- and you can probably see the story here. You’re starting to add all these little things up. You’re providing best in class everything. Mm. Um, then we’re leveraging the relationship that that partner has. Yeah. And that’s, in my opinion, where, where the magic cre- is created. And to do that, and I’m talking in the foreseeable future, next two or three years, you don’t need 200 partners. 

Mm. You don’t even need 100, right? Mm. If you have, in the ANZ market, 25, 30 partners, um, that are, that are really focused and, and going to market with you- Yeah … you’ve got more than 95% of the, of the market covered. Look, you’ve used the, the, the word depth. I love that, right? And so I, you know, I, I work for a company now that cares about the same thing. 

They’d rather go deep and long with one vendor- but be a specialist, right? Yep. And then because you can do more with the platform, whatever it is. Um, and I, I think, like in going back to the [00:14:00] opening piece on, on where businesses have struggled and failed is where they’re wafer-thin. If we look at the big outsourcers, right? 

Or any business that offered generalist capabilities, they’re the ones struggling now. Yeah. Right? I mean, I think you’ve, having depth, also you’ve got the economies of scale as well. Yeah. I mean, I think this token economics piece, right? So everyone’s coming to terms with the tu- true cost of agentic as well. 

I mean, prompt engineering, cheap, right? We can survive on, what, 100 bucks a month, 200, etcetera, if we’re really having fun. Ramp it up a notch to do agentic across a whole organization, you’re gonna be hemorrhaging money, right? Yeah. And so I think that plays into your, um, your business case as well. Yep. Um, but, look, I love depth, right? 

Because I think you’ve got to be a specialist these days. You’ve got to do your thing very well in order to survive and win against all these other existential threats, right? So I get that. Yep. Vic, if you’re, uh… So for the partners lis- listening, so we’ve got, um, people working for [00:15:00] MSPs and integrators- Yep 

in our audience. And they’re probably responsible for choosing, uh, lots of different vendors to work with. There’s a million different channel programs. Yep Uh, what advice would you have for them, uh, as it relates to selecting a, a good, a, a good vendor? Like, how to evaluate a channel program? Like, pause for a minute and, uh, pretend it’s not Ninja, it’s something else. 

Yeah. Easy. What should they be looking for? Easy. Um, and so let look … A- and, and this is a conversation that I have almost every day, and it’s something that the team and I have pioneered here in the last sort of couple of years and, and started to perfect, right? But if you look at the MSP market, and, you know, particularly when we’re, we’re going in and it’s highly competitive, there’s many other good vendors that do great, great work as well, and they’ve 

Generally speaking, an MSP that is using a ps- particular set of tools has been using those tools for years, their people are certified, they know the motion, right? [00:16:00] But when you open up the conversation with, “You know, it’s great that you’re using this tool. Awesome. Um, what, what do they do for you?” 

And that’s the reaction, right? That’s the reaction that I’m looking for. And, and the confusion of, “What do you mean? What do they do for us?” “They, they sell us software.” “Okay, great. Yeah, but how do they partner with you?” Again, there’s more confusion, right? Mm. Of, well, what do you mean by that? Well, what, how are they partnering with you? 

How are they making sure that you’re landing new customers on your platform? How are they helping you to expand your business while they expand theirs? The confusion reigns right now. Yeah. Right? And so once you open up that conversation, it gets them thinking, “Oh, that’s right. What, what… You know, what is, you know, vendor X doing for us- Mm 

today?” Right? That’s… And that’s the gap that I need. So it’s how, how are they helping you grow their business? How are you, how are you sharing in their [00:17:00] growth? Correct. Yeah. And- Oh, there’s so much I could say here. But if you think about- Thinking of one vendor in particular at the moment … I, I was sending you there. 

Oh. Yeah. Naran, there’s one question you need to ask. Oh. But you think about it, right? I mean, uh, what are they doing to help that partner grow their business? Mm. Right? Um, and that’s the gap that I need, because if they’re open to it, I c- I can show them, you know, empirical data how I’m gonna show, how I’m gonna grow your business with you. 

And so it’s a good question to ask. I think our audience will be thinking, “Well, what are my vendors actually doing for me?” I’m asking the same question of myself right now. 

Yeah. Yeah, so am I. Yeah. Yeah. There’s about 40 that I’ve got. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Well- It’s, it’s a complicated space. Mm. What are they doing? But, but table stakes need to be you believe, as a vendor, that, uh, your, your platform or product or service that you’re providing is best in class. Mm. Right? And I, you know, I will, I will go to war with, with anyone on that, right? 

 I mean, the other thing that nobody ever talks about but is just so true, do you like the, the [00:18:00] person sitting across the table from you? 

I mean, you know, would, would you go to dinner with this person? Would you introduce this person to your clients? Would you, would you do business with this person, right? And not making it a popularity contest, but just w- do you want to actively be in business with this person, right? This is coming up a lot. 

Yeah. No, but it’s tough. It’s true. For you and I, ’cause we don’t like most people, Jono. But on y- It’s not true. On, on, on, on lots of episodes, like, this is a, this is a running theme. I wonder if AI’s driving that. Mm. Like, this push towards- Yeah … you know what? We want a real human connection. Mm. Yeah. I think people are- Yeah 

craving it more than ever. But you can see how complicated it gets really quickly, right? Then that means, well, a- am I surrounding myself with the right people? Yeah. Is the team that I’m building- the right kind of team and the right kind of culture. Mm. ‘Cause that’s, you know, what’s been shown to me by, you know, my leadership in the US, right? 

Mm. Um, I mean, if I look at the people that I work with in the US and my, my direct boss in the US, [00:19:00] love this guy, right? Honestly, like e- easily the best boss that I’ve ever had. Um, and, and, well, how do you quantify that? I don’t know. I can’t… And that’s, that’s often the most special times of, well, you know, what does he do that makes him so special? 

I don’t know. Mm. You know? But, um- He, he just sent me a text. He said the check’s in the mail. Yeah, check’s in the mail. Thank you. Yeah. No, but it’s, look, you, you both have known me long enough, and especially you, Jono, that, that I don’t, I, I won’t say things for, for the sake of saying them, right? Mm. But the, the, the reality is that this complexity comes in, um, when you’re, when you’re selling, when you’re activating, when you’re partnering with someone. 

It’s not just a, a, a one-time, you know, we catch up on Thursday, we sold something, I’ll never see you again, right? Mm. The partnerships that we have, you know, we’re in their office every week. Um, we’re sharing resources. I’ve got my SDR team activated talking to your database. Mm. Um, you know, we’re doing marketing events together. 

We’re [00:20:00] traveling together, and we’ve got our partner conference in Bali in, in, in August. Um, so if you’re not a partner and you wanna be But, but there’s, um… But yeah, we, we do, we do special things together, right? Yeah. And then the most special thing that we do is, you know, we change people’s lives at the end user level, right? 

Whether that’s the customer or the technician driving the tools. Like, if you’re a technician using, you know, and I won’t mention names, other vendor names, but there are p- particular set of vendors out there you know, one of them made in India, um, that if you’re using them today and you change to, to Ninja, I mean, your life has just changed, right? 

Because you’ve gone from this overly complex way of doing things and, and it’s, you know, it’s a mishmash of tools put together, to beautiful UI, easy to use. I mean, uh, Jono, I mean, if anybody knows, I, I’m not a technical person, but, you know, if push [00:21:00] came to shove and you put Ninja in front of me tomorrow and I needed to deploy tools, you know, in, into a mid-market customer the day after, I could do that. 

Mm. Right? Now, that, I think that says a lot. 

You mentioned Adobe in the ’90s. I’m not gonna let you off the hook, mate. Um, what was it, what is it about Ninja that reminds you- And before you answer, right, this is our show. We can say what we like and provided our producer doesn’t yell out and say, “Cut!” Right? Like, you can say whatever you want on this show, all right? 

So just be honest here. It was Adobe- Come on … Adobe in the ’90s. Let’s go. Come on. It was, it was a special place for a number of reasons. One, um, the guy that actually brought me in, which is, you know, still a great friend of mine, I won’t mention his name to, to, um, to embarrass him. 

Um, and so, and he was, I think, the sales manager at the time, or about to be the sales manager, something like that. But he basically took me under his wing, um, and, and really helped me a lot in so many ways. And, and even till today, we’re still great mates and, um, and, uh, and, and even amongst the family and so [00:22:00] forth. 

So, but yeah, we worked there together, so there, there was that initial bond that was, that was awesome. And then, you know, simple guy like myself finds himself at this, you know, huge US vendor, which wasn’t that big at the time. Mm. But it was, you know, it was on this massive up curve, again, just pre a billion dollars. 

So that’s where a big similar- similarity is with, with Ninja. It was, you know, we, we were on the run sheet to a billion dollars in ARR. Um, and, and, and the acceleration between 500 and a billion was just insane, right? And it just reminds me a lot in terms of, of the culture, the way that we operated, um, the way that, um, everyone in the team is expected to know the platform, know the Ninja story. 

Mm. Back then it was know the Adobe story. I mean, when would you have a sales guy presenting to 13, 1400 people in the city, um, you know, that are using Adobe tools 10, 12 hours a day, right? Mm. Well, they put me through that, [00:23:00] right? And it was hell for a few months, learning it and getting it going. But, you know, and you’re both tech guys, you, you understand the, the, the pain of being a salesperson presenting a, a very, very complex tool, like whether it was Photoshop or Illustrator or- Mm 

any of the tools at the time, to someone who’s using that tool 12 hours a day and showing them, you know, tips, tricks, and techniques, right? Yeah. Um, and so I think- Do you know what that reminds me of, by the way? Yep. You know the episodes of The Simpsons where you’ve got- Yeah … the Itchy and Scratchy show- Yeah 

and you’ve got the dork in the audience who’s asking- Yeah … the complicated question. Exactly. “But the wizard didn’t do this.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what’s going on, right? You’ve got, like, proper anoraks that are asking you questions, and they’re pretty serious about it, right? Insane. Right. Insane, right? And so, uh, yeah, there was, there w- I mean, there were- But those hard times create, you know, special experiences, right? 

Mm. And so, and we also had, I think it was, uh, I dunno, 16 or 17 record quarters in a row. Um, you know, the options were, were [00:24:00] flying around. Mm. You know, the d- the Australian dollar was trading at 46 cents at the time. Um, you know, we were selling options in, in US dollars. It was, it was- Good times … oh, it was utter madness- Mm 

you know, for, for the four years that I was there. And again, the people were great. Um, I pr- you know, I left, and I shouldn’t have left. I made a mistake in leaving. Um, I- Why’d you leave, Vic? Come on. Well, I, I, I actually left for the wrong reason. I, I had been offered this other gig- Right … um, with, with a company that shall remain nameless. 

Mm. But Microsoft did buy them in the end. Mm. And that became Defender. That became Microsoft Defender. Oh, wow. Um, and so… And it was great technology at the time, but you know, probably one of my, one of my blessings and one of my regrets because, you know, I wouldn’t change anything about being here today. 

Yeah. Nothing. And I, you know, in all the crazy stuff that I’ve done in my life, um, you know, m- many of it regrettable. Um, but I, but I, but if I wanted to be here today- That’s right … which I love being here [00:25:00] today- Yeah … well, I couldn’t change any of those. Yeah, that’s right. And so if the decision was, you know, would you have stayed? 

Well, clearly not now. Mm. But there were years that I regretted having left because it was such a special place, right? Mm. Um, but that’s also what, what’s brought me here, so, uh. These things shape us. Yeah. You know what I’m saying? We’ve spoken about this many times, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you rise to a challenge, I think. 

Yeah. It’s important to take on a job that makes you nervous and anxious, and you’re like, “Geez, I’ve gotta get on with it.” Yeah. And it occupies your brain. You got that deep focus. Yeah. Do you think you could- Well, I wouldn’t have done Chile Internet, right? Right. So if I hadn’t have left Adobe, I wouldn’t have, you know, bought into Chile Internet and then created that to the success that it was. 

Sure. You know, the eventual sale to, uh, it was Hutchison at the time, now Vodafone. Mm. Um, and so they were very special moments as well, right? Sure. And so, uh, whi- which one would you rather take, right? Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, um… But I got the opportunity to, you know, it was my first sort of foray into, uh, running, uh, my own business outside of the family business. 

Mm. Um, and it, and it was, uh, [00:26:00] you know, some fun times. Adobe in the ’90s. Good times. Let’s go back there. Yeah, US dollar share options. Mm-hmm. Australian dollars at 46 cents. All of it. Crazy. See, I’ve been to the Adobe head office in San Jose. Hmm. Yeah. It’s not just an office. It’s four city blocks, like four buildings. 

There’s a helipad and a basketball court on the roof. Of course. Their canteen’s, like, bigger than most head offi- head offices in Sydney. It’s unreal. So maybe that’s where Ninja’s going. There you go. Look, I, I don’t know if we’re gonna end up with a he- Basketball courts on the roof … yeah, with a helipad on the roof. 

Yeah. Maybe. You never know.  

Nah, that’s great. Well, let’s get into it. Uh, we’re here today to talk about the SaaS apocalypse, which, uh, seems to be completely at odds with a platform like Ninjas that’s been growing 70% year on year. How much AI i- is [00:27:00] going into, into that? So i- does, does AI have a role to play in perhaps Ninja’s growth? 

Obviously, it’s got a role to play in, um, some of the, the speculation on valuations around software. Yeah. But, uh, tell us a little bit about the role that, or the impact that AI is having on Ninja. So a couple of things. I, I think, you know, in, in, in general terms, uh, Ninja is investing a huge amount of, of resources, money, and everything you can think of in, into AI. 

Um, and, and probably one of the key areas where it’s really helping us, um, if you think about how many integrations Ninja has today. So, you know, think of all the tier one vendors, whether it’s, you know, ServiceNow or CrowdStrike or SentinelOne, um, a whole bunch of others, you know, Qualys, Rapid7, etcetera. 

Um, that takes an inordinate amount of time to build those integrations, [00:28:00] um, and, and the way we release them. And so, you know, AI now will become a tool that, uh, you know, we’re gonna sort of double down on, um, around that. And instead of being able to release three, four, five integrations a year, we may be able to do three, four, five integrations a month. 

Hmm. And so from that perspective, um, I think that’s gonna be a great value add, um, to all of our existing clients, all of our existing partners, um, and, and something that, that is, you know, quickly measurable. Mm-hmm. I mean, so look, we, we opened the show talking about this SaaS apocalypse, right? And it was clearly all over the, the news and the media. 

You couldn’t look at LinkedIn, if you weren’t looking at our stuff that is, and not see a story about it. Um, and was it 285 billion sell-off in 48 hours in February of this year? And it’s the first time software P/E ratios fell below the S&P 500. I mean, panic, I don’t know what’s going on there. I mean, I know the banks, they always like to think that they can [00:29:00] build things for themselves until they fail epically, and we spoke about one of those on the show not that long ago. 

Don’t need to name them again, of course. Yep. Um, what’s your take on that? I mean, is it, you know- Uh, honestly, until you guys raised it, I hadn’t really even been aware of it. Ah. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s what it is is we are so hyper-focused on doing what we’re doing, uh, and executing, you know, that, that, that vision that, you know, the, the, the founders, the CEO and the founders have, that hardly paying attention to it. 

Yeah. You know, from, from our side of things, you know, I think our growth is coming from, from a number of places. You know, first is, um, the way that the platform has been built. You know, we’re born in the cloud, we’re a modern tool. Mm. You know, a lot of the stuff that we’re replacing out there, um, you know, are tools that were predominantly on-prem tools that have been, it’s probably not even a word, but SaaSified, if that makes sense. 

Sure. Yeah. And so, um, you know, for, for, for us, that’s a, that’s a huge, [00:30:00] um, you know, bonus. Um, and, and it’s a, and, and it’s a great time for us. I think the other thing is because our CEO, Sal, is, is a product-led CEO- Mm … uh, makes a huge difference, right? Because he’s right at the coalface, you know, he still leads product development in many ways. 

Um, and, and the reality is that’s creating sort of a, a, um, you know, a run sheet for the rest of us in the field. Yeah. Um, w- you know, I’m sure you’ve done, uh, a little bit of research as well. I mean, we, uh, our, our customer obsession, our customer focus is, is relentless. Mm. Um, you know, we run a 98 CSAT, and that’s not a new thing. 

It’s been over five years that we run a 98 CSAT. And so as we’re developing this platform, um, that is taking, you know, best of breed tools and making them better. So if you think of, you know, when Ninja, back a few years ago, it was Ninja RMM before Ninja One. And so, you know, we would provide something like TeamViewer, for example, as your remote [00:31:00] access tool. 

Sure. Um, we’ve gone out, we’ve built a, a, a tool called Ninja Remote, um, which we then gave the clients the choice, you know, would you like one or would you like the other? Mm. Overwhelmingly, people were starting to choose our tool over- Mm … you know, the, what I would, what, what I would’ve called at the time the marketing company. 

And why is that? It’s just the way that we build stuff. It’s just better. Right. It’s just easier to use, interactive. It, it’s, it’s, you know, single point of reference, single pane of glass- Mm-hmm … all on the same platform. Mm. And that’s why now as we start to, um, add more value to that as we, we go along and, you know, asset management is, is one thing that we’ve added- Yes 

um, recently. Vulnerability’s another one that we’ve added recently. Yes. Um, a, a weird one for us, a little left field for us, was when we bought, uh, Dropsuite last year. Okay. Um, you know, which was a huge acquisition for the team. Um, tha- that’s, that’s left of center for us. Normally we’re, we’re a [00:32:00] build, not a- Yes 

not a buy company. Um, I mean, the Dropsuite acquisition has been great for us. Right. We’ve integrated it into our platform. Um, and so now again, it, it’s got that Ninja look and feel and, and so forth. But the ease of use, um, you know, back to your original question- Mm … I think that, that, you know, predominantly at, at mid-market and above into enterprise, all of these organizations are running hundreds of applications in their environment, and where they can rationalize, they do. 

Yes. Where, where it makes sense, right? Yeah. And so if you’re a, you know, a single tool out there by yourself and you do one thing, even if you do that really, really well, uh, there’s a few examples that I won’t mention, but, but even if you do that really, really well, and there’s a tool that does it almost as well, uh, or, or the same, but you can do 10 other things at the same time- Yeah 

it stands to reason, right? Yeah. Look, I get it. I mean, we, we see that in the security space, right? It wasn’t that long ago that a, a company would talk about, um, defense in depth. [00:33:00] Yep. And, you know, and there was some niche product or capability that was justified because it did its thing- Yep … 10, 20% better than something else. 

And I think Microsoft really capitalized on this too, right? I mean, they, you know, they’ve got this approach of bundling, right? You know, you, you buy the bundle, you buy the E- E3, the E5- Yeah … now E7, God forbid, right? That includes God knows everything. Is E7 a thing? It’s a thing, mate. A thing. It’s about $40,000 per user per month, something like that. 

Sounds reasonable. It’s a bargain. Sounds reasonable. A lot of value there. Yeah, it’s a bargain. Right? But it’s to your point, right? It’s, it’s like, it’s… What is it? Don’t let great get in the way of good, right? Yeah. If you’ve got a capability, particularly if you’ve paid for it, right? Yeah. That does the job. 

Yep. Um, I think it’s difficult to justify these niche capabilities, and maybe that’s part of the answer. I mean, you’ve survived this, quote unquote, “SaaS apocalypse.” It sounds like you’ve stayed true to your core- Yep … as well. And I was gonna ask you a question on that too, like with acquisitions and new features and capabilities, I imagine that’s part of the decision process, is how adjacent is this, right? 

Whether it’s [00:34:00] in-house or paid for- Yep … does it stay true to the core- Yep … of what you’re offering? And it sounds like it does. Yeah. For us, I mean, it, I, I think a, a big thing that people feel as well when, when you’re, you know, in motion with them, whether it’s the partner or, or the customer, um- And, and I’d encourage you to talk to other Ninja people as well. 

But the reality is the, the feeling at Ninja, the closest it reminds me was when I was back at Adobe in the, the late ’90s, right? Mm. You know, the, the, the, the crew that built this has captured lightning in a bottle, right? Mm. The, the timing to market, um, the platform they’ve created, the platform that they continue to invest in and create. 

Mm. If you see what’s coming down the pipe, the next two years are, are insane for us, right? Right. And so there’s some very exciting things. But, you know, as you can probably tell from, you know, even the interactions that we’ve had- Mm … in the past, we’re all just as passionate as the, as the leaders and the exec team in, in the US [00:35:00] and other parts of the world. 

Um, you know, I, I wouldn’t swap my gig for any other in the market today, right? No. And so love what we do, love the people that we work with. You know, I, I recently had a personal event that, that, you know, a lot of companies could have taken and sort of, you know, dealt another way. But- Yeah … honestly, working with these guys is just, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s been the blessing of my career so far, right? 

It’s, um, the way that they operate, everything that they do. Mm. It’s like you’re part of the family, right? Yeah. And I think our customers start to feel that, and our partners start to feel that. It comes through. Yeah. Right, I think it comes through. I mean, i- we talk about this too, right? When you, you know, you- you’re across from a seller, from a salesperson, you know, that classic thing of would I buy from you, right? 

And if somebody’s passionate and it’s heartfelt and it comes across as genuine, and you can tell. It’s real. I can tell. Yeah. Like, if it’s real, right, and you’ve got a spring in your step and you genuinely believe in the value of what you’re putting forward, it comes across. 100%. Yeah. There’s, there’s just no way that I could do what I do on a [00:36:00] daily basis. 

As you both know, I’m, I’m pretty much on an airplane internationally every week. Mm. And I don’t think anybody’s body could sustain that- Mm … unless they loved doing that, right? Because it’s, it’s a heavy burden on, on everything, on your body, on, on, on your family, on the people around you. But it’s had no impact because the reality is I love what I do- Mm 

and, and I, I couldn’t possibly think of doing anything else right now. Very fortunate. Yeah. So it seems to me that to buck the SaaSpocalypse trend, you, you kind of need to hit the trifecta. You need good product, good customer experience, and, and the solution fits. Yeah. Gotta be bang on. We talk about those three dimensions a lot i- in terms of what it takes to unlock growth. 

With what Ninja’s doing, I think you, you’re actually capitalizing on, on the headwinds that AI’s creating. Yeah. So where AI is driving, uh, I would say [00:37:00] consolidation of, of different tools, that’s actually playing right into what Ninja is doing, which is making it easier to run an IT department. Yep. So if you’re offering turnkey consolidation, I think it kind of makes sense. 

All right. Now, Jono, we’ve got a new section. I know, confessions. 

So we’re moving straight on from, um, Adobe in the ’90s. That’s right. Oh, God. I’m sure there’s some confessions there. We’ll leave that. We’ll, we’ll park that for a minute. Mm. Uh, we are reading out the best confessions on air. We have another one. We do have another one. Now, um, thank you to Johnny Wishbone, not his real name, um, who submitted our first story. 

Loved that. This is the next one. Um, Jono, you’re on cue to read this out. 

All right. Confessions of IT professionals. Let’s go. Professional confessions- Mm-hmm, from the vault … read by Jono today. From the vault. Uh, the outage that paid for itself. Shout out to Sid Guy. You know who you are, and you’re listening. I [00:38:00] actually have no idea who this is. No. Yes, we, we do try and guess. We do. 

We do try and guess, ’cause some of them we think are our mates. Mm. I don’t know who this is. Let’s go. But it’s sketchy. Sketchy. 

” I was working as a network engineer for a top-tier payments processing company when I made what I thought was a very routine production network change for one of our banking customers, a prominent Chinese bank. 

It looked very clean on paper. The maintenance window was approved. Implementation steps were written, and the rollback plan was ready. My confidence level was probably way higher than it should’ve been.” Sure, this is gonna be fine. It’s gonna be fine. “The change went in. Nothing exploded, no alarms screamed, no one tapped me on the shoulder asking why payments had stopped processing.” 

I’d say that was a win. Mm-hmm. “So naturally, we all moved on with our lives.” A few days later, [00:39:00] we found out there had in fact been an outage. There was a banking payments link, and somewhere downstream, transactions had failed, money had stopped moving, and uncomfortable questions were now being asked. The customer advised us they had lost millions of RMB as a result. 

They were furious and decided to terminate their services with us and move on to another gateway provider. Oh, that’s a shame. Well, it sounds like they just lost a customer. Well. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. All right. At that point, I was mentally packing my desk. I assumed my name was about to become a permanent feature in internal training material under the heading Why Change Control Matters. 

But therein lies the twist. The customer thought they had fired us. Internally, the reaction was not what I expected. I was bracing for the career-limiting conversation. Instead, [00:40:00] management seemed strangely calm. Hmm. Yeah, almost relieved. And that was when I learned the full commercial picture. The agreement with this customer was costing our business an eye-watering amount of money to support. 

We were apparently losing millions every year just to keep the customer alive. And so while the customer believed they had punished us by walking away, my managers were quietly looking at the numbers and thinking, “Well, that solves the problem.” I had accidentally caused an outage, triggered a customer exit, and somehow helped terminate one of the least profitable contracts in the business. 

Now, I think there’s a lesson in this for all of us. What is it, Naran? Well, for any of us that are out there facilitating change, you know, if it’s a bad commercial relationship, just botch it on purpose. I mean, that’s what I got out of the story. Disclaimer- Yeah … this is not professional advice. This is not advice. 

It’s entertainment. This is just entertainment. Let’s be clear. I don’t know what the statute of limitations is on that. I wonder how old that [00:41:00] story is. It’s a gateway- Yeah … a payments gateway provider. Oh, man. I tell you what, change control, God bless it. I mean, Vic, you’ve, you’ll have been there too, right? 

We, we, I mean, like, we told our own stories, right? I mean, so, like, years ago, when, when change goes bad, you know when you get that sinking feeling- Oh … and the shit’s gonna hit the fan? One way or another, directly or indirectly, you’re responsible, and you’re just waiting for someone to come and grab you and say, “You got a quick, quick minute, uh-” Just a sec. 

“Can I just talk to you for a sec?” And they’ve got that look on their face like, “Oh, just, I’d react worse, but there’s people around- Yeah … and I wanna yell at you in private.” Well, you can imagine this guy going home and just laying awake. Sweating. Rocking back and forth. Just waiting, and then getting a high five. 

Oh. Some- someone gave him a medal. All right. Oh, man. Come on, Vic. Vic? You guys have, uh, just brought back some memories- You’re right, mate … of- This guy, come on … of a payment provider that I was working at, uh- Oh … for, for some time. Um- confessions that I can, uh, that I can, that I can actually talk about. Um- [00:42:00] Why does everyone find this so hard? 

I know, right? Just let it go. Oh, just let it out? It’s just get it out. Well, there’s, well, no, but- It’s okay … there’s a step, this is like 12 steps. One of them is getting it off your chest. The internet’s a safe space. It’s a safe place. I know this is confessions, but it, I mean, uh, it’s nevertheless an interesting story. 

So during, during Chile days, Hang on a sec. We the, we lead engineer at Chilli, I think. 

Oh, I was not the lead engineer. Okay. But we had this guy, uh, okay, I won’t mention his name, but, you know, and unfortunately he suffered from bipolar. Um, and so it was, uh, you know, s- there, there was interesting times ’cause, you know, our lead engineer would disappear for days, you know, ’cause he was, he was sick obviously. 

Um, and one of these times, you know, we are down, right? Like it’s 11:00 at night, you know, I can see… Can’t remember the time, but let’s say we’re dragging 50 megabits or 100 megabits at the time, whatever it was. Right. Um, and- You’re an ISP, right? Yeah, we’re an ISP, right? Got it. Yeah. Got it. So massive- Yeah 

amounts of data, right? Yeah. And you could just see this thing pumping, right? Yeah. Then all of [00:43:00] a sudden I see the, the, the, the graph drop, right? And we were flowing like two or three, and I’m like- So dropping’s bad. Yeah, yeah. There’s something wrong here. Cliff. So, yeah, so I, I… Correct. Literally a cliff. Yeah. 

So, and, and we’d just recently invested a lot with Cisco, dual redundancy, redundant everything, right? Mm. So I called this guy up and go, “Hey, listen, can you see the problem?” He goes, “No, there’s no problem.” I go- … “No, I’m telling you there’s a problem.” He goes, “There’s no problem. I’m watching it live.” And I go, “Yeah, I’m watching it live too. 

There’s a problem.” “Have you not noticed the drop in the graph?” And he goes, “Hold on a second.” He Goes, “Yeah, we’ve probably got a problem.” I Go, “Okay.” What was he looking at? Yeah, I go, I, that I was just about to say, “What are you looking at?” Anyway. “No need to look at anything. I’ll meet you at the data center.” 

That was the, the catch cry, right? “I’ll meet you at the data center down in Pyrmont, near the fish markets.” by then, you know, there’s five engineers there, all from Chile. 

Um, and you’re paying… Even at that time, you know, we were paying these guys, you know, exorbitant wages because- Mm … they’re the smart guys in the room, right? Mm. What, I mean, what, what do we know about this [00:44:00] stuff, right? And so they’re all fussing around and, and, and carrying on. By this stage it was, like, 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. 

I’m losing my mind, right? Right. ‘Cause we’ve got… I think at the time, you know, we’re probably up to around, you know, 30,000, 40,000 clients, right? I’m, I’ve, like I said, I’m losing my mind by this stage, right? I’ve got engineers everywhere, and I’m just thinking of the wages that I’m paying at the time, and they couldn’t work it out. 

And I said, “But guys, what, what, why have we bought the, the redundancy?” And apparently we were only getting a feed from one of the, one of the, the, the pipes from, from this data center provider. So I said Well, why can’t we just take the cable from this one that we know is working but the equipment is down, and put it in this one where we know the equipment is working? 

Very logical. Can’t do that. Can’t do it, Vic. Can’t do it. No. Uh, hold on a second. Like that. Right. It was down anyway. Telling you, 15 seconds later- Bang … bang, boom, back. We’re back online, everything’s fixed. So you, you did it? Yeah, literally. I just grabbed the cable. Said, [00:45:00] “You can’t do that.” And they’ve gone, “No, you can’t do it.” 

I go, “Like that?” Next thing you know everything’s back up. Right. You know. So I’m now settled because, but now I’m angry, right? Yeah. Because w- well, what, what, what, what- What do you need those fellas for? “Oh, well, that’s just not the right way to do it.” And I’m like, “Mm, okay.” Mm. But, but, you know, and again, in typical sort of tech fashion, right? 

They’re, they’re thinking about them and their job and, and the value they’re providing rather than… ‘Cause no one else cares about that, just them. Yeah. The, the, the thing that we should all be worried about, which is, what’s the customer thinking? Yeah. Right? What’s the partner thinking? And we had a lot of partners sell, reselling our stuff as well. 

Mm. And so not really a confession but, but more, you know, the, the, the th- the, the madness in, in our lives, right? Mm. Um, I can probably send in a couple of confessions, uh, anonymously. Yeah, do it anonymously. Yeah. I got a, I got a, I got a lot of, uh… And I think that’s how we started the day today, with, uh, with some of the comments that I, that I was making earlier. 

Mm. Um, which won’t be repeated. Well, look, we’re gonna move [00:46:00] on to our last section here. Um, this is our famous quick-fire three questions. Vic, I’m gonna trust that you are well rehearsed on this. 

I’m not. Okay. But let’s, but let’s hit it. That makes three of us. Great. 

 Tech Leadership Quick Fire 3 is sponsored by NinjaOne, and I’m gonna enjoy reading this just as much as you’re gonna enjoy hearing it. 

So you can sit there and like… Now, here’s the deal. NinjaOne don’t care what we say on this show, which is exactly why we love them, and sponsors like them are how we make more episodes like this and with great guests. All right? So here’s how it goes. 30 seconds is working for you. NinjaOne unifies IT to simplify work for nearly 40,000 customers in 140 countries. 

The NinjaOne unified IT operation platform delivers endpoint management, autonomous patching, backup, and remote access in a single console to improve efficiency, increase resilience, and reduce spend. They’re obsessed with customer success and have [00:47:00] held a 98% customer satisfaction score for more than five years. 

Try NinjaOne for free at ninjaone.com/freetrialform. 

Get on with it All right. I think, look, you may have answered some of this already, but let’s give it a red-hot stab. Question one: what is one piece of advice that you’d give your past self before taking on a major tech initiative or challenge? This is young Vic. 

Forget about the cable story. What, what advice would you give young Vic with all the, the knowledge and the capability you have now? Research Research? Research. You know, investigate, talk to people around you. Not necessarily the experts, but the people at the coal face- Mm … doing the job on a daily basis. 

Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, have the conversations, say the words, do the things. Right. Don’t take anything for granted. No, because the, the, the reality in our world, um… And you know, it’s good that, you know, you guys have created this, this environment where, where we [00:48:00] can at least have a laugh about it. But most of the time, you know, I don’t think people understand, uh, the complexity, uh, or the seriousness of what we do- Mm 

right? Uh, and how it affects people’s lives. It does. Um, I mean, if you, if you look at, you know, someone going through a breach- Mm-hmm … and, you know, it’s a, it’s a single founder- Yeah … but they’ve, they find themselves in a big business- Horrible … and they’re running through a breach, their life has just collapsed. 

Yeah, that’s right. Right? And, and they don’t know it yet, but the people around them, servicing them, know it. Um, and through their own fault or somebody else’s fault, regardless of how we got we- got here, their lives are just about to be destroyed. Mm. Right? Um, and so yeah, research everything, make sure, triple check everything, dot every I, cross every T. 

Mm. Um, ’cause as much as we joke about it and have fun doing what we do, um, I think that- It’s high consequence. Yeah. It’s massive consequence, right? Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s partly where, where Ninja’s got it right as well, right? Yeah. Um, we, [00:49:00] we understand the level of seriousness of, of what we do. Mm. 

And we have a lot of fun with it- Yeah … but it, it, this is for real. I think this is one of the, um, comparisons, Shane, we talk about the good old days, right? Like a couple of old fogies, you know, Roy and HG talk about- … how life was like, right? But things are high consequence now, right? Massive. Oh, yeah For sure. 

Right? I mean, there’s stats on it too, right? It’s even worse. Massive. Massive. In the back of your mind, you know that if your business is out for like three or four days, you may not recover, right? Yeah. IT is a high stakes game- Mm-hmm … and, um, and it’s integrated and woven through every aspect of, of our commerce- That’s right 

every aspect of business and our lives. So I think that’s great advice, doing your research before you, uh- Yeah … before you take on something big. Yeah. Or changes. And who’s down- and who’s downstream, right? Um, you know, in any breach now, it’s not, it’s not your data. Mm. It’s the data that you have on other people and other circumstances and other things- Mm 

that can become a high danger for- It’s- … for third parties, [00:50:00] fourth parties. Like it’s- Huge blast radius- Yeah, that’s it … for screw-ups … it’s, it’s insane, right? I mean, Jono, you know of a couple that, that, you know, while I was, uh, working at another company, you know, you go through a big breach- Mm … right? And, um, you know, you’re dealing with a, you know, with a, I don’t know, a transport company, for example- That’s right Who’s got the, uh, the inventory? 

Where’s it going? What truck’s it on? Yeah. The truck gets there, where do I deliver it? Yeah. Like, it, it just… And, and it’s not three or four days. Mm. Right? Could be- Weeks … could be, could be three, four weeks. Could be months. Yeah. Right? Till, you know, people pick their stuff back up and, and f- find everything and… 

You know, we, we talk about this almost every day because, um, you know, particularly with our SaaS backup product, which, you know, pe- uh, still a lot of people, and there’s not a lot of market uptake here in APAC yet on it. I think penetration’s only sitting at around 20, 25% in terms of market penetration. Mm. 

But, you know, test it on yourself. Um, you know, shut your email down- try to guess what was there. Yeah. [00:51:00] Right? And, you know, if… And, and you should go and ask the question, you know? Is my, uh, ask the company you work for, “Is my email being backed up?” So if I lost my laptop tomorrow or something disappeared, or if we had a major cataclysm- Mm 

um, can I go and get my email? I know what’s there. Yeah. It’s about 100 unread emails. Yeah, but it, becomes serious quickly, right? It, it becomes, you know, that’s, that’s where our lives are. You’re lowballing that number. Yeah. Yeah. Very lowball. That, you need to add an extra couple of zeros, mate. 

All right … thank you. Go, Jono. Yeah, question number two. Yeah. You’re a big shot now. Oh, God. VP- Come on … of APAC Enterprise, but you, you weren’t always a big shot. What’s something you used to believe in in tech leadership that you no longer do? I, I’ve always looked up at, at, uh, people that I, that I work for. 

And I mean, if I, if I go back to the Adobe days, um, actually I’d love to even know if he’s alive anymore, but Graeme Freeman, Bluey Freeman, I mean, this guy was like a god. He was like a god amongst men. Why? Right? [00:52:00] Just, you know, coming fresh into the industry, you know, where he, he, he’s everything that you would’ve expected, you know, a hope- a high-profile VP to be at the time, right? 

All right. This guy ran the region. Uh, he then went off- Larger than life? Massive. Right. Right? And his personality was, was larger than life. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I mean, I, I, I still remember those days fondly, right? Mm-hmm. Of, of how these guys influenced me and, and how they operated and, and the magic that they created. Mm. Right? Because again- Whether that was all how they are normally and, you know, you can’t get away with a tenth- Mm 

of the stuff like that anymore, not even near it. Um, but just the aura they created around them and, and, and the culture they created around them of, of, you know, this performance-led culture, uh, that cared about their customers, cared about their partners. Th- this sounds like something we wanna hang onto, not something you no longer believe in. 

This sounds like something you want- No, no, it’s not that I don’t believe in it, it’s just that, you know, times are different now, right? Right. I mean, you know, whether it’s expense departments or, or, or otherwise. And look, I mean, [00:53:00] we, we are very privileged that at, at Ninja, you know? And I think that’s w- one of the other reasons. 

We, we don’t look at MDF at Ninja. We, we don’t th- look at things that way. You know, a percentage of sales and a pe- we, we, we look at it as, as a potential for opportunity, right? So, you know, if we were to do business together, how could this look? Um- I heard blank checkbook there, Jono. Is that what you heard for- That’s what I heard. 

That’s what I heard. Yep. Yeah. No, but there’s- … there’s, there’s real opportunity hidden in, uh, in the partner community. There really is. All right. Um, and so w- we’re just unlocking that. Well, it’s a good segue then to the final question. I mean, y- I think you’ve answered this before, but what is your gut check for spotting a good partner or walking away from a bad one? 

Yeah. Engagement. Engagement, yeah. Engagement. Indeed. Yeah. Yep. Um, you know what I mean? We’re, we’re, we’re, we’re working at the moment with, you know, one of the, the, the world’s largest tier one software providers, um, here locally and around the region. Um, and the engagement that we [00:54:00] have from their local leadership- Mm 

I was talking to… I, I was actually in Brisbane on, on Wednesday and, and met with them again. Um, but the plan that we’ve built, the go-to-market plan that we’ve built, the engagement we get from him and his team- Mm Honestly, there should be a case study done on that- Right … right? On the level of difference that, that it can make to a vendor when your partner is engaged to when they’re just coming along for the journey. 

Sure. Right? And so, but then it becomes reciprocal because the amount of business that we’ve started to do in the last three, four months compared to what we were doing a year ago i- is, it’s, it’s, it’s like a, y- you’re reading a different novel. Right? And so, um, yeah, engagement is key and- Okay … and, and that’s why it’s not for everybody, right? 

Yep. You can’t have every partner engaged all the time because they’ve got priorities as well, right? They, they could be really engaged with, you know, Cisco and Microsoft and a few other key vendors for them. Mm. And it’s very tough in the partner community to be able to drop what you’re doing to look at the shiny [00:55:00] new ball over here- Mm 

and consider, “Should I be doing that as well?” Mm. Mm. Right? Um, but for those partners that get where we’re going, can see the opportunity in the market, ’cause I honestly think in terms of a door opener, that’s where, that’s where we play hard. Question for you on that. So, um, your partners, are they, most of them, are they coming off a bad experience with an alternative or is it greenfields? 

Like, what’s the mix these days? Depends in the t- depends on the market. Okay. So Asia, as a generalization, um, either coming off a, you know, subpar vendor that- Yeah … they’ve been working with and not getting the right type of support, or manual. Right. The amount of times that I walk into massive organizations that are still running their patching manually- Yeah 

um, in fact, a lot of people, you know, Microsoft, are they doing their third-party patching? Got it. Okay. You know? Great. Um, yeah. Good answers. Um- Thank you. Thanks, Vic. Thank you, Vic. Thank you. Thanks for coming on Things Reasons. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you. I can’t wait to come back. Awesome. Yeah.[00:56:00]  

Thank you. So wh- when you come back, you can be the foreign correspondent, ’cause I think you’ll be, um, traveling for a while now. Oh, I can do that. Mm. I can do. I’d love to be the foreign correspondent. Yeah. Stories from the road. Oh, God. Indeed. Naran, where can our audience find us? All righty. Well, so you can find us where you get your podcasts. 

So I want to shout out already to Apple Podcasts and to Spotify. Thank you for your loyalty and your engagement. Let’s use that word again. But of course, you find us anywhere you get your pods. Of course, we’re on YouTube as well. God bless you if you’re trying to avoid us on LinkedIn. We’re absolutely everywhere. 

We are, of course, produced by Pruloon. Digitally, we are produced by Carina Aguilera. And of course, you can find the show at thingsreasons.show. There’s the confession section as well. That’s wonderful. We’ve got a new one of those that’ll be up there soon. We want your stories. We want your confessions. 

We’re gonna read out the best ones. Thank you for your engagement. There’s that word again. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us, everyone. See you next time. 

[00:57:00]